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Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

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Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Ozmademos on Mon May 10, 2010 1:30 pm

This post is intended to help those not familiar with alot of the Blood DK mechanics to get a simple overview

Spec

51/0/20 is the spec

Here's the link: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#jfVMVh0Icfkf0stZfMbhxc:IpGMmV

Just cut and paste it. It leaves a no points open for you to choose something extra... sorry
***Note: The Link has Glyphs Already in there for You***

All remaining talents from the Blood Tree are damage reducing (tanking) talents and won't increase your dps any; the will decrease your dps as a matter of fact, by eating up precious Blood Runes

Stats

Hit: you'll need 8%, or 263 hit rating (7% if you're a Draenei)

Expertise: you'll need 6.5% to cap it, or 214 expertise rating (note, though, that being a human or dwarf and using certain weapons can help you get capped faster). Every one of your hits that's dodged or parried is a significant loss to your dps.

Strength: give you all your Attack Power. most important stat

Crit: makes your hits hit bigger every so often, but less important than other stats

Armor Pen: it's good, very good. second most important stat after Strength

Haste: least important stat of all

Attack Power: you'll get it from strength

Agility: not all that big for dps, only slightly better than haste

Armor: wear plate. You want plate for its armor value; it contributes to your attack power through the Bladed Armor talent. =)

Sigil

Sigil of Virulence is the way to go since the added Death Strike to it.

Gems

Meta: Relentless (+21 Agil and +3% crit dmg)
Red: Bold (+20 Str) or Fractured (+20 ArPen)
Yellow: Inscribed (+10 Str and +10 Crit), use this only in yellow spaces if the socket bonus nets more Str or Attack Power, otherwise use all Red
Blue: Nightmare Tear (obviously you can only get just one, so put it in a good slot!)

Rotation

Blood has a very specific rotation... lucky you. The number of Death Coils you launch are dependent on your Runic Power and whether your Ghoul is out and Horn of Winter is up. At high Runic Power you'll probably do 2 Death Coils before you'll need to continue through the rotation. On fights with multiple mobs (more than 4), you'll be better off using Blood Boil)

1 ) Icy Touch
2 ) Plague Strike
3 ) Heart Strike (two times)
4 ) Death Strike
5 ) Death Coil (or Horn of Winter if you havent yet, and Raise Ghoul)
6 ) Death Strike
7 ) Heart Strike (three times)
8 ) Pestilence
9 ) Death Coil (or Horn of Winter if you havent yet, and Raise Ghoul)
10 ) Heart Strike (4 times)
11 ) Death Strike
12 ) Death Coil (or Horn of Winter if you havent yet, and Raise Ghoul)
13 ) Go to 6

***Note: This spec will be remade for tanking in Cataclysm***
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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Boman on Tue May 11, 2010 7:58 am

If you're fighting multiple mobs, what is the benefit of pestilence at #8 rather than being 3rd after IT/PS? No mention of Glyphs, but I also currently debate glyph of pestilence. I don't use it at the moment, but I do miss the refresh of diseases. Also, maybe it's me doing something wrong, but when I try to follow the rotation I often find that I can't do 4 heart strikes in a row.. or 2 death coils.. so I go with whatever is up rather than waiting. Am I missing something?

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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Ozmademos on Tue May 11, 2010 11:28 am

Boman wrote:If you're fighting multiple mobs, what is the benefit of pestilence at #8 rather than being 3rd after IT/PS?

I did forget to specify in the Rotation explanation that with multiple pulls (usually over 4) Blood Boil out-performs Heart Strike in damage output. So you'd basically insert Blood Boil into the rotation where it specified Heart Strike. But, part of this is also bound in the problem with AoEing everything down. There's not really an AoE rotation given, but it would probably go Death and Decay, then apply diseases, Pestilence to spread, then Blood Boil to pop them.

The focus here was just on single target dpsing, which isnt entirely fair since I do mention AoE situations for other specs. They should be included.

No mention of Glyphs, but I also currently debate glyph of pestilence. I don't use it at the moment, but I do miss the refresh of diseases.

The Glyphs specified in the talent page were essentially given as the 'only' Glyphs that were worthwhile. The general consenus over all the websites I researched was that Blood doesnt have very good choices for glyphs. However, I have found a couple glyph choices that other people had discussed seriously. Most notibly were Glyph of Obliterate, Glyph of Plauge Strike, Glyph of Bloodstrike, and a couple others. I'll edit them into the post as soon as I can.

A question I have though, for anyone who does regularly play a Blood Deathknight, is why Obliterate isn't part of the rotations that I've seen. I can only assume it's because it consumes the diseases on the target, and this particular rotation/glyph-set seems intend on making sure you reapply diseases as little as possible, if at all. Reapplying dieases might eat up some dps time, but I cant imagine it would cost someone a huge portion of their damage to do so.

Also, maybe it's me doing something wrong, but when I try to follow the rotation I often find that I can't do 4 heart strikes in a row.. or 2 death coils.. so I go with whatever is up rather than waiting. Am I missing something?

Heart Strike spam is something I read on various forums as being the best in dps. I believe it takes advantage of the first Death Strike (#4) converting the Frost and Unholy Runes (used to apply the dieases) into Death Runes as they come off cooldown, and the second Death Strike (#6) then converting the remaining Frost and Unholy Runes into Death Runes. But, by the time you reach the 4x Heart Strike (#10) I think you'll have run out of usable Runes. This means that one of those Heart Strikes (mostly logically the first) should be something to give you more usable Death Runes like Blood Strike or Obliterate. Probably written down wrong at some point.
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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Grymgroeth on Wed May 12, 2010 3:51 pm

The nonuse of Obliterate for Blood and Unholy, though you didn't ask about it there, mostly comes down to the painful dps loss of having diseases down for even a single GCD. For Blood the loss is doubly felt due to Dancing Rune Weapon also losing damage for the lack of diseases.

The glyphs you'll really want to run as Blood are:
Disease or Dark Death
Dancing Rune Weapon
Death Strike

"Rotations" should look more like: (shamelessly copied from mmo-champion)

Rotations *thanks to Soilantgreen64 from EJ

Glyph of Dark Death build

IT-PS-HS-HS-DS-Dump
DS-HS-HS-HS-HS-Dump

On the first rotation of any encounter you will often find yourself with 1-2 seconds of down time during your first dump phase. This is usually a good time to raise your ghoul or cast HoW.

Glyph of Disease build
The GoD rotation starts off the same as the GoDD rotation, except prior to the RP Dump phase you use a pestilence to refresh your diseases.

It will start off as:
IT-PS-HS-HS-DS-Dump
DS-HS-HS-HS-Pest-Dump

And changes to...
HS-HS-HS-HS-DS-Dump
DS-HS-HS-HS-Pest

Your main priority is to Heart Strike as much as possible. DS only to create death runes and refresh your diseases via pestilence before they fall off. You will not have many free gcds for Death Coil, so don't feel the need to cast it just because you have 100 runic power. You WILL be runic power capped quite often.

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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Ozmademos on Wed May 12, 2010 8:13 pm

Cut and Paste from another website is technically a violation of copywrites...

Also, you havent really added anything by doing so, unless you really intended to agree with the earlier post that there is indeed a Heart Strike that should have been marked as a Death Strike.

Please keep this in mind for further posts. I would rather not start implementing a strict code of penalties like Elitist Jerks for the website for protection Sad
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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Grymgroeth on Wed May 12, 2010 8:34 pm

Considering the post I copied was basically copied from EJ (with proper notation that was also copied), it's not much of a copyright violation. Now, had I claimed it as my own work without crediting sources, you'd be on to something complaining about copyright issues.

As to contributing more than was already there, I did actually. Rotation changes depending on whether Dark Death or Disease Glyph is in use and your initial post assumed use of Disease.


If you'd prefer I simply link to posts from other boards in the future, I'll be happy to but at that rate you may as well simply refer everyone to mmo-champion or EJ or wherever else you prefer to gather your info from instead of trying to provide it all here.

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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Ozmademos on Thu May 13, 2010 12:18 pm

So, then what is the primary difference between using the Death Death build over the Disease build? What are the advantages of the one over the other? Which would be the best to go with, and why?
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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Grymgroeth on Thu May 13, 2010 1:35 pm

Disease glyph is generally considered the better true AE build since diseases are maintained on all targets in range (via Pestilence) while Dark Death is better single/double target dps.

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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Ozmademos on Thu May 13, 2010 1:54 pm

But, Pestilence will always refresh the diseases on multiple targets (but not the primary target without Glyph of Disease). So the AoE damage shouldnt be significantly different between the two builds.

Doesnt going with Glyph of Disease prevent having to use Icy Touch and Plague Strike where another Death Strike and Heart Strike could be used? Effectively the Icy Touch and Plauge Strike hit for less than a Death Strike and Heart Strike, so saving the time to reapply diseases on a single target should make for a greater output in dps even on a single target fight with no adds.
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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Grymgroeth on Thu May 13, 2010 4:33 pm

Dark Death build doesn't use Pestilence at all, that's why Disease is considered the better AE build. Yes, you skip refreshing diseases with IT and PS but simcrafting (at least the last time I looked) showed a single target dps gain using IT and PS over HSx2 in raids.

Just to be sure though, lets look at the numbers involved shall we? For giggles, let's use Bodk for our calculations.

(AP coeffecients from here)
Attack Power: 3125
Avg Weapon Damage: 790.5 (Orca Hunter's Harpoon)
Icy Touch: (236 + 313(10% AP coeffecient))*1.15(talented)*1.2(glyph) = 757.62 avg damage unbuffed
Plague Strike: 790.5*.5+189 = 584.25 avg damage unbuffed
Heart Strike: (790.5*.4+368)*1.3(10% per disease) = 889.46 avg damage unbuffed

IT+PS = 1314.87 avg unbuffed
HSx2 = 1778.92 avg unbuffed

*edit* forgot the constant damage bonuses for both strikes

I fail completely at scaling DK AP with raid buffs so I'm gonna have to get with Bo later for his buffed AP numbers to do the raid comparison and I'll update at that point.

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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Ozmademos on Thu May 13, 2010 5:08 pm

But it wouldnt be 2x Heart Strikes. It'd be a Death Strike, then Heart Strike.

You're also using the Glyph of Icy Touch in there, which is not included in either spec to up the damage. And, you're talenting the Icy Touch... which is not part of either spec.
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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Grymgroeth on Thu May 13, 2010 5:24 pm

Look at the rotations Oz. Icy Touch and Plague Strike don't get replaced by a Death Strike and a Heart Strike, they get replaced by 2 Heart Strikes. Also, I did say I was using Bodk for comparison purposes, the spec he was using last has both talented and glyphed Icy Touch which is why I included it in that round of calculations. I'll do untalented/glyphed when I have a chance to confirm his AP in the other spec that doesn't have those factors in play because I'm betting there's a few gear changes involved.

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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Ozmademos on Thu May 13, 2010 5:35 pm

Yeah, but even if we take your calculations as is... the IT and PS do about 460 less dmg than 2x Heart Strikes. So, even then, the 2x Heart Strikes (and in effect, the Disease build) would win in the theorycraft.
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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Grymgroeth on Thu May 13, 2010 5:42 pm

Yes, in an unbuffed situation, 2xHs wins but HS doesn't get any buff scaling where IT does. That's why I need to get Bo's buffed numbers and his numbers in his "proper" blood spec. Unfortunately, wowarmory and wow-heroes both calculate stats without applying buffs so I can't finish the full comparison yet.

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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Grymgroeth on Thu May 13, 2010 6:34 pm

Ok, managed to dig up his dps gear stats at wow-heroes for a much better dps comparison. For str to AP scaling, I'll be using a flat 1:2 conversion and assuming all the best raid buffs are available.

Base numbers:
Str: 1744
AP: 4998 (missing boot enchant)
Weapon Citadel Enforcers Claymore (909 avg dam)

Buffs:
Imp Might +687 AP
Imp Horn of Winter +178 Str
Imp Gift of the Wild +51 Str
Abominations Might +10% AP
Kings +10% Str

Buffed Stats:
Str: 1744+178+51*1.1=2171 (+427 = 854AP)
AP: 4998+854+687*1.1=7193

Icy Touch: (236 + 719(10% AP coeffecient))*1.2(glyph) = 1146
Plague Strike: (909*.5+189)*1.2(glyph) = 772.2
Heart Strike: (909*.4+368)*1.3(10% per disease) = 951.08

IT+PS = 1146+772.2 = 1916.2
HSx2 = 951.08*2 = 1902.16

Slight edge to IT+PS in dps spec with full raid buffs (before food and flask)

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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Ozmademos on Thu May 13, 2010 7:24 pm

Grymgroeth wrote:
Base numbers:
Str: 1744
AP: 4998 (missing boot enchant)
Weapon Citadel Enforcers Claymore (909 avg dam)

Buffs:
Imp Might +687 AP
Imp Horn of Winter +178 Str
Imp Gift of the Wild +51 Str
Abominations Might +10% AP
Kings +10% Str

Buffed Stats:
Str: 1744+178+51*1.1=2171 (+427 = 854AP)
AP: 4998+854+687*1.1=7193

Icy Touch: (236 + 719(10% AP coeffecient))*1.2(glyph) = 1146
Plague Strike: (909*.5+189)*1.2(glyph) = 772.2
Heart Strike: (909*.4+368)*1.3(10% per disease) = 951.08

IT+PS = 1146+772.2 = 1916.2
HSx2 = 951.08*2 = 1902.16

Slight edge to IT+PS in dps spec with full raid buffs (before food and flask)

There's problem here still. You're using Glyph of Icy Touch, which (again) isnt part of either build. Take that out and Icy Touch only does 1027 dmg (236 + 719(10% AP coefficient)).

And, it wouldnt be two Heart Strikes, it'd be a Death Strike then Heart Strike.

Death Strike: (909*.75+187.5) = 869.25

So, it should look more like:

IT+PS = 1027 + 772.2 = 1799.2
DS+HS = 951.08 + 869.25 = 1820.33
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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Grymgroeth on Thu May 13, 2010 8:29 pm

I'm going to take it for grabted at this point that you either haven't looked at Bodk's spec and glyphs or you're ignoring the fact that both of his builds have Icy Touch glyphed. You're also ignoring the rotations posted previously so let me put it as simply as I can - Icy Touch and Plague Strike are both replaced by Heart Strikes when removed from the Disease Glyph build.

Just so you can see the direct action for action comparison, let me repost the Disease rotation
Glyph of Disease build
The GoD rotation starts off the same as the GoDD rotation, except prior to the RP Dump phase you use a pestilence to refresh your diseases.

It will start off as:
IT-PS-HS-HS-DS-Dump DS-HS-HS-HS-Pest-Dump

And changes to...
HS-HS-HS-HS-DS-Dump DS-HS-HS-HS-Pest-Dump

Please note that the IT-PS-HS-HS has changed to HS-HS-HS-HS. This is not a typo. There is no extra DS in the Disease rotation. You could theoretically drop DS completely but it's rather signifigant dps loss to do so.

As for the Icy Touch glyph, it's only a matter of time before AP scaling allows IT+PS to overtake HSx2 in damage whether IT is glyphed or not. Bodk isn't in anything close to BiS gear which is why he needs the IT glyph to do more damage with Dark Death than Disease

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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Ozmademos on Thu May 13, 2010 9:14 pm

No, I havent looked at Bodk glyphs or spec because this post isnt about Bodk. It's about Blood Deathknight DPS in general. I wasnt intending of fixing Bo's spec or dps. I was giving the DPS information that is rated best for damage in that spec. I know that you used Bodk's spec and glyphs as an example, but he isnt operating with the spec or glyphs specified in the original post.

And the rotation also stipulates 4x Heart Strikes in the second line, where there should be:

DS - HS - HS - HS - DS - Dump

And without the Glyph of Disease, you'd have to repeat the first line... otherwise the diseases will drop off


Last edited by Ozmademos on Thu May 13, 2010 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Grymgroeth on Thu May 13, 2010 9:25 pm

Like I said, the 2nd line isn't a typo. DT is too much damage to ignore but too many runes to spam. As for this post not being about Bodk, it wasn't until I picked his gear and spec to demonstrate the differences in damage between the rotations. By the first runic dump all frost and disease runes are activating as death runes and if you try to make the modified rotation start with a DS you need more runes than you have available to do 3 HS and another DS.

HS-HS-HS-HS-DS - 6 runes
DS-HS-HS-HS-DS - 7 runes

That 7th rune is why HSx4 is not a typo. It is mechanically impossible to do DS - HS - HS - HS - DS because the runes don't refresh fast enough.

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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Grymgroeth on Thu May 13, 2010 10:38 pm

As a point of interest for anyone beyond Oz and I that's reading this, please keep in mind that which rotation, and glyphs, will give the best dps is HIGHLY gear dependant. If I come across a reliable DK spreadsheet, I'll post it here but until then, please trake a few minutes to at least calculate the differences in HSx2 and IT+PS damage to see which rotation is more likely to give better dps. Also, if you routinely play at 500 latency and consider that fast, please don't expect to be anywhere near theoretical maximum dps.

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Re: Blood Deathknight DPS (3.3.3)

Post  Ozmademos on Thu May 13, 2010 11:07 pm

Also, the primary difference between using the Glyph of Dark Death and using Glyph pf Disease is Glyph of Dark Death takes advantage of gear and gems with attack power more, and Glyph of Disease takes advantage of gear and gems with ArPen


Last edited by Ozmademos on Thu May 13, 2010 11:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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