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State of Raiding 4/12/2010

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State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  Boman on Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:59 pm

Hi All,

We've certainly had our share of ups and downs this expansion. It's been quite
a roller coaster ride. Naxx was definitely one of our high points, but had
unequaled low points as well. It's hard for me to say exactly what did us in.
Speaking for myself I always try to do what I think is best for the group in
general. So I have to say when I was told that the reason so many people left
the guild was that they didn't like the direction the guild was going, I'm not
really sure what that means. If you have some idea, I'd love to hear your
thoughts on that one. History has a way of repeating itself.

Another high point was our ToC10 group. We put together some of our best
players and we did better than ever in there. But once again personalities got
in the way. I remember myself breaking down once because of all of it and
almost quitting raiding right then and there. We recovered and ended reasonably
- though still not being able to down the last heroic boss. Similar to issues
we had back in BC where the last bosses seem to elude us. But if you notice a
pattern - you don't escape the issues. We also lost more people during this era
because we were exclusionary since our focus was on clearing content and that
meant leaving people out.

I do have a point I'll be getting on to eventually I'm sure.

There are a lot of mixed feelings about our current 25-man raiding with Silver
Hammer. To be honest, there are a lot of feelings about our 10-man raiding as
well. Our 10-man group has the potential to get to and eventually defeat the
lich king. Our main holdups are time. We can work around that. But we seem to
have an issue keeping people as well. It's an interesting phenomenon that we
can't seem to shake. Even the "pug" we brought in last night said what a great
group we were - and we did make progress completing 9/12. But again we have to
be exclusionary to get a group that can do this. We do run more 10-mans at the
moment and have our 25 so that helps some. But I fear we continue to walk a
dangerous line as we don't really have a solid plan for what we're doing.

The main concerns I hear around our raiding with Silver Hammer seem to revolve
around loot distribution. Sure there are other issues, personality conflicts,
etc… but those things will happen with any group and is not unique to our
situation. The reality is that the loot issues will as well. We will never get
a system for loot that everyone is happy with. Back when we used DKP in Naxx,
we had people hoarding dkp and forgoing upgrades. We had people coming less and
less as their dkp got lower. I can't tell you how many times someone asked me
what is my dkp. It was harder to find people when we were short, harder to
replace people when someone left, and harder to keep people the lower their dkp
got.

We need to make a plan for the next expansion and decide what we're going to do.

I know people have a lot of strong feelings about everything. As for me, I
can't tell you how much I appreciate that Silver Hammer was willing to raid with
us this expansion. In Ulduar we were learning how to work together. Our
progress was a bit embarrassing but looking back not totally unexpected. ToC we
really started to click and everyone got better because of it. We started
sticking to requirements, and we ended up clearing normal mode. That was
something I felt really good about.

In ICC-25 it feels like a lot of the loot drama is coming back. These may not
be the words of wisdom that you're looking for, but get over it already. This
is not a progression group, we are not full of people who are masters of their
class. We are full of strong willed people that would rather take their old
parachute full of holes and jump with it than ask or accept advice from someone
else. As long as they meet the minimum requirements for what we need, there is
nothing wrong with that. That is the way our current system works. What amazes
me though is that everyone knows that and yet still gets visibly annoyed. That
absolutely needs to stop. It is what it is for now, and we can look forward to
what we're going to do differently as we hit cataclysm.

I work on technology at a local community hospital. I've been here for 19
years, love my job, and really can't imagine doing anything else. It's been an
interesting journey and when you look back and think about what you've done you
usually come to the conclusion that time goes by way too fast. But even more
important, you're amazed at how little you knew when you thought you knew it
all. Where I work it's an organization that is focused around constant
improvement and satisfaction. We are here for our patients and no matter what
line of work you are in, you should never forget that. We are reviewed each
year around a set of values that we call BECOME. Build partners, Extend Trust,
Change now, Own it, Model excellence, and Exceed expectations. It is also made
clear that how well you rate on these values is even more important than your
technical skills. Although you still need to meet stringent technical
requirements. It is our goal to become a model community hospital, and you
can't do that if everyone isn't on board with the vision of the organization.

The reason why I bring that up is because that's who I am. I believe in what
the organization is doing and it can't help but to flow into my personal life as
well. When it comes to World of Warcraft my goal is to see and defeat all the
raid content, at least normal modes. Raiding is what I love to do the most in-
game and that won't change. What changes for me is that the further away we get
from that goal, and the more drama that we have with our raids, the more
frustrated I get. I am there for the group and I don't think that anyone who
has raided with me for any period of time would question that. I also believe
in following the rules whether they are good or bad. If they are the rules that
were agreed upon then they must be followed. There is always room for
improvement, and I hope we improve again considerably with cataclysm.

Recently I've been considering moving my priest to another server and/or guild.
This came up because our progression has been lacking in all groups and the
committment I see from others has been waning as well. I hold everyone to a
high standard in my mind, but not necessarily in practice (which needs to be
corrected). I am quick to forgive but also quick to judge. And I hold officers
and leaders to an even higher standard than everyone else. If we are not there
for the group and for the goals of the group above all else then we don't
deserve to be officers or leaders. It has been really challenging as of late to
keep sane through all the comments, drama, and other issues surrounding our
raids. So I thought that if I were to move my priest to another guild that had
the progression I needed, then maybe that would satisfy my primary goal and I
could continue everything else as is. Unfortunately that's just not possible
for me at this time. DisturbedOnes means too much to me as do all the people
that I have the priviledge to raid and play with. I'm not totally thrilled with
that revelation because I know that many people don't care at all unless they
get there spot or their loot. And once they get their loot we see them less and
less. I've had people that I felt pretty close with get up and go more times
than I care to remember. So it's a flaw on my part but it's also part of who I
am. If things were to completely fall apart then certainly that could all
change. We can't predict the future. But that is how I feel right now.

Since I brought up DisturbedOnes I also feel I need to take a quick detour to
mention that as far as I'm concerned Unvme/Jadan/Amanapart will always be
DisturbedOnes. I am merely the caretaker. I bring people together to run raids
but he would bring people together. You couldn't help but like him. I hope he
comes back to the game soon because I know how much he misses our mad crazy
hopeless arena matches and pvp. But life has and always will come first. There
are few people that have made a profound impact on my life while playing wow
that we continue to be friends outside the game. He is one of those people.

Now back to the post... We are a group of average to slightly above average
players that want to see the content to the end. I like to think of myself as a
great player. I finally realized last night that I am not. If you're interested
message me and I can point you in the direction of the post that changed my
mind. But all I can say is... wow! Now I think I know what separates the great
from the rest of us. I believe many of us could get there - but do we really
want to. It truly is a level of study, knowledge, committment, and skill that I
haven't seen before. I was reading a thread of someone being questions/grilled
for a position in a higher end yet still casual raiding guild and I realized...
I don't want that. I want to get to that as the circumstances arise and it's
required of an encounter. I want us all to strive to be that good, to always
improve. But for someone so fanatically dedicated, we are not the droids you
are looking for.

So for the remainder of Wrath of the Lich King I ask that everyone sticks with
it. I don't expect to make any major changes right now, but we are going to
start planning for Cataclysm. We are going to make significant changes for
Cataclysm. For now we'll continue to push through on our 25-man making minor
adjustments as we go. But I'm going to throw out some of my thoughts for
Cataclysm now and what my expectations are in terms of attitudes, requirements,
and so on just so you can be thinking about how and if you fit in. Nothing is
set in stone. We always have great debates about what it is we are going to do
and become. If you participate regularly in the website you will most certainly
be seeing more in the months to come.

For those that wonder about the current state of our raiding teams are, I can
tell you a little bit about where the ones I am on are at:

25-Man ICC: We are currently 6/12 progression-wise and run Thursday nights
from 6-8pm server and Friday nights from 6-9:30pm server. We have defeated
both festergut and rotface for 2 weeks in a row. This is a huge improvement for
us as several weeks ago we could execute perfectly but still not have the dps to
down festergut. I expect our dps requirements will continue to increase as time
goes on so that we can continue to clear content and down new bosses. The blood
for the legendary quest has so far gone to Helioz from DisturbedOnes and Fedand
from Silver Hammer. I cannot say what Silver Hammer will do with their turn for
the blood, but my plan for ours is to make sure it gets to the people that can make
the most out of it first. I can't guarantee any order as of yet but the next people to
get it if they are interested will be Desodenado, Nuelor, and even though he is not
in our guild Cazdeathupon. Melee dps will make the most out of it, and anyone that
is a regular to our raids deserves priority in my mind. One very important note
though is that most people will never get the legendary. The epic weapon you get
is still a huge upgrade and well worth the trouble. But knowing that 50 shards are
needed as well as some work on some of the bosses that we have yet to kill, the
chances are we will only see one or two people get the legendary at the end.
Those people will probably end up being Helioz and/or Fedand.

10-Man ICC: The primary group that I run with goes on Saturdays from 5:30-
9:30pm server. We're currently 9/12. I won't go into a lot of detail about
this team, other than to say that we are currently looking for 2 dps'ers - in
case you see my spams in trade chat or my posts on the WorldOfWarcraft realm
forums. We have very strict minimum requirements of 7k on bosses, and our
preference is to find an elemental shaman and/or boomkin. Though we have some
flexibility if the dps is extremely high. Some have viewed the 10-man as a bit
elitist, and even left the guild over it. But all I can say is that my goal for
this expansion was to complete content, and the only way to do that is to be
somewhat exclusionary in looking for the best talent possible. Even with that,
our success this expansion hasn't been as good as expected, and every time we
get a solid group together something does seem to come up. Still, we continue
to push forward and hope for the best.

We have a new 10-man ICC group that we've started on Sunday nights at 4pm
server. We're initially only clearing the first wing until we feel we're ready
to move on for more bosses. It is a mixed group of some alts and some mains.
As a group this was our first week and we did clear the first wing after a few
close attempts at saurfang. So congratulations to all! We do have at least 2
open healer spots in this group, so send me a message if you might be
interested. Another exciting change is that Grynamer, a recent addition to our
guild, is trying to start up new raids for some of the older wrath content. So
check out the guild message of the day or if you missed it (we're bound to
change it soon) just message him in-game.

And now some thoughts on the remainder of this expansion:

I want to see the Lich King down in both 10 and 25-man. I plan to do
everything I can to make that happen. I'll try to remember to talk about it a
little before/during this weeks raids. But the main point is that as we
continue on we have to start replacing low performers with high performers. My
feeling, and I need to discuss this with our other officers and with the silver
hammer, is that only high performers should have a guaranteed spot. The rest
should be based upon availability. The only way we're going to have a group
that people want to come to is if we have a group that does progress.
Unfortunately you can't have it both ways. It's not being mean to tell someone
that they can't come to the raid unless you need them if they haven't taken the
time and made the committment to the raid to be performing with everyone else.
We've seen huge progress on this over time, and almost everyone that comes now
does meet these requirements. And we are better about reminding people when
they do need to improve. I'm not going to specifically define the parameters -
but I am going to say that if you look at the reports of the raid and you are
an outlier on the low end - then you are that person. You may be new, still
need some gear, still need some help. And we want to help you! But, you
shouldn't have a guaranteed spot until you are up with the rest of the group.
That is the point I am making.

The next point is about clicking tentative for a raid invite. We need
consistency, so the people that consistently use the tentative option should
also be removed from the invites and considered an alternate. This isn't a slap
or anything - we just need our core set of raiders to be those that can make it
all the time and know they can make it. Life emergencies happen, but that is
not the norm. And as many people know, especially on Fridays, we always need
people! Not being on the invite list does not mean you don't get a spot. I've
started copying the raid invites to the next week and removing all tentatives
from the current week anywhere from 24 to several hours prior to the raid. This
doesn't mean you won't get a spot, but it does mean that it will be based on
need and not guaranteed.

Finally the most important note right now. Loot. The complaining really has
got to stop. I've seen it from a lot of people, and we just can't have it.
First of all, you should NEVER make someone feel bad for winning a piece of
loot. Ever. It is a celebration for them. The only thing that should be said
is of a congratulatory nature. Once they win it is no longer about you, it is
about them. Keep it that way. We run every week, and your chances have
increased for next time. Some people may go through the entire expansion with
bad luck on rolls and very few wins. It's unfortunate, but it is potentially
possible. Come for the people, contribution to the guild, progression, and the
chance of loot rather than the loot itself. Our rules don't always work out
fair and hopefully in the future it gets better and better. But for now it
just is. It's a compromise that I'm willing to make to raid this expansion.
That's a question that you need to answer for yourself as well.

There was also a lot of issue recently with Helioz returning from his time in
Japan and switching to DPS. Since it's not normal for people to be allowed to
switch, there were some that were very annoyed by this. First let me apologize
for not publicly announcing this change at the exact moment in time that
everyone was listening. Let me be clear about this - if I do something it's
because I feel it's in the best interest of the raid. If you want to start your
own raid, get 25 people together, make sure all roles are properly filled with
solid performers, and do so without upsetting anyone I really do wish you the
best of luck. But in all honesty, I'm surprised and disappointed that people
who raid with me would think that I do something for favoritism or some other
random reason. Are we often lacking healers? When helioz came back it was at a
time when we were asking some of our healers to dps. We did not need more
healers. So why not find another dps instead and keep helioz out? Have you
seen his dps? Can you out dps him? This absolutely and completely pisses me
off. I made the right decision as far as I'm concerned, and if anyone has an
issue with it then they have an issue with me and I'd prefer that they just
leave the group if they can't deal with it in a professional manner. In
addition - Helioz would rather have been healing. That was his choice for this
expansion. But above all that was his desire to stay with the group and do what
we needed. I won't go on and on about this - but you need to know where I stand
on this. Players are not allowed to change their role/spec/etc... because we
absolutely need consistency and fairness. But there are times when I need to
change someone's role/spec/etc if they are open to it. And I will do so if I
feel it will benefit the group to do it.

And some thoughts on the upcoming expansion - more in list format as they are
just general ideas at this time:

- We will be switching our focus to 25-man raiding assuming gear differences remain consistent
- We will run a progression 25-man and a general 25-man
- Alts will be allowed in the general 25-man, but that would be your main for that run. So no switching toons around in general.
- Members for the progression 25-man will be chosen from top performers in the general 25-man - Progression 25-man will run 3 days a week at 4 hours a day, less if content is on farm
- 10-mans may run on off days, or we may choose to create 3 10-mans to run on an off day
- Leaders (officers/class leaders/...) will be expected to help fill spots in raid and encourage others to improve
- special items/drops should be earned based upon yet to be defined achievements or recognition, rather than rolled
- We will move back to a yet-to-be-defined dkp based system for progression group.
- general 25-man loot may remain more open
- Behavioral expectations will be set and maintained
- Contrary to popular believe, the guild will not be changing it's name to "Daargo's Dugout", "The Darbalins", or even "The Bee Gees"

I've gone on far too long, but hopefully I've given you a flavor for where
things are at and where my mind is currently at for the future. Everything
changes and your feedback is always welcome. At some point in the future WOW
will be gone, how do you want to remember it?

Thank you,

Boman

Boman

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Join date : 2008-10-26

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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  rachetguy on Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:26 pm

3 nights of 4 hours each? I sure hope it's weekend daylight hours. If it's a week nite it will knock me out as I cannot stay up that late as I have work the next day to consider.

Briteleaf

rachetguy

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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  Ozmademos on Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:58 am

Since you seem to be asking for honestly... you'll get the best kind... the Oz kind of honesty. I think a big part of what did us in during our high point 25Naxx days was putting too much trust into people who were not having our best intentions in mind. It was pretty obvious from the start that Mirt was a person not to be trusted (based entirely on my experience with Mirt which was pretty negative from the start). And Tel showed that he too was too extreme in his thinking, and both joined together to try and push their own agenda. This is where I think you have some short-comming Bo. You have a tendency to put your trust in someone else to do the right thing, but it ends up causing more trouble than helping. Truly this is something that's torn apart our raids on a number of occasions through the years.

Something I always wondered, was where exactly you and I stood/stand... You and I were in the original Kara. We've attended more raids than anyone ever. And yet, I never seemed to have the same standing as someone like Dromey or Mirt. Maybe it was because my first real talk with you was over how those tier 4 gloves were given to Aurisa over Pont despite it being the bigger upgrade for him. That kind of first impression may have struck you as a trouble-maker. And it probably didnt help that during our runs in Gruuls Lair, I make a big deal about the role I was playing or how loot was given out on a free roll basis to people who were never coming back. Being up front right now, I was under the impression that I was being held back intentionally for some reason. Ignored. And when another tank was chosen over me to main tank Gruul (a pug no less)... I was pretty much done right there. Something I did bring up to you. And, in that talk, you finally mentioned how strained you were over our progress (or lack thereof). How you had to make a split decision over something fast. How people were messaging you fairly constantly with various stuff (mostly complaints and annoying requests). Up till then, it hadnt much occurred to me how many people probably whisper you, or the decisions you have to make really fast. Your sharing with me and letting me know that you wanted it to get better too made me feel like you probably werent all stone and piss...

Since we're on the topic, and I want to be upfront. I was infact asked by several people in BC (who are no longer in the guild and havent been for some time) to take over our raids, and even a couple people asking me to take over the guild. I refused. And, I kept me eye on those people who ended up leaving or being kicked anyhow.
I told them flat out that Boman was the guild leader, and Boman ran the raids.

But, I think they all shared the same sentiments as me... They just dont hear you. There's a serious lack of communication from you to them. Many times have I found myself getting questions from guildies or raiders about what you mean by something, or why something happened or didnt happen. I ended up being a big PR guy for you!

The raid must go on.

That was the big thing for you. That we raid. We may not always get the same people, but we needed to raid. But, if 'we' are never the same people, then who is 'we'? It sounded alot (and still sounds in some ways) like the 'we' is really just you. You want to raid, and you will raid even if that means not taking people from the guild or regulars. You're going to raid. Not so much 'we', since 'we' can easily be left out or replaced; or so the feeling goes. If you werent going be able to make the raid, there wasnt a clear secondary person to pick up and get things going. No other go-to guy. I seemed to be getting this feeling that you felt like you had to do everything yourself! That no one could help you, no one else could really be relied on to stand next to you, no one could take over in your absence. It was all your burden, and you werent going to let anyone help you take a bit of the load off your shoulders. You couldnt possibly miss a single raid.

It surprised me then that you asked me to form a 10man raid of my own so that we could have a stable 25man. I almost took that to mean you trusted me somehow with more responsibility. I tried to see some meaning in it. But, then it happened. There was constant infighting between our groups. Rivalries started, and it only got worse when my 10man go farther, faster, and held on to more people longer than yours. I tried subtly and with as little offense as possible to tell you that you're a little off-putting sometimes to raiders. You might want to ease up; maybe even take a look at how Aurisa and I run things, see how we're doing it. But, the claim was that all our hard work... all our time spent... all our team effort... everything... was just luck? just happen-stance? our raiders just happened to stay randomly? I wont lie... that was a huge slap in the face to me and my 10man. We didnt just happen to get lucky doing what we did. We worked hard together as a group. People trusted me as a leader. I communicated frequently with them; making sure that the raid they got was the raid they wanted. And when I couldnt give them exactly what they needed, I explained why it wasnt possible. I never tried to leave someone unanswered. I thought of it like customer service, and I wanted these customers coming back! I think you could do with developing a better repore with our raiders. Ask them how it's going... directly. Not just on the website.

Eventually, it was pretty clear that your 10man wasnt going to happen. And, when ToC came out, it seemed a good opportunity to get you back into 10mans (which you seemed to have given up on). I know everyone from my 10man including me wanted you in on all the fun. Again, we had to struggle with someone who seemed to have your favor. Eventually, that kind of attitude made alot of people feel distant and unwanted again. Communication went downhill... and not only did our own raiders start caring less and less about coming or doing well, but the guild at large started felling really left behind and distant from you.

Now, with our 25man... it's been said many times, and the feeling is still there... The Silver Hammer people suck. They suck big time at raiding. They can be the nicest people, and I'm sure if I knew any of them in real life we'd get along with good times, but only some 2 people seem to know anything about class mechanics (Kindring not being one of them). And given that the Silver Hammer was put in charge of one of the most upfront and notable parts of a raid [the loot], it rubbed alot of our raiders the wrong way, which spread eventually to the rest of the guild.
Here's my aside... loot is really just a red herring. A ruse. A crude mask for this game. It's what we see, but it's not what acts. Any good raider should be able to kick ass and max their dps/healing/tanking with damn near ANY gear handed to them. But, getting a piece of gear is more a pat on the back... a recognition to many people that they're doing an excellent job and they've earned something for all their hard work. A person who comes all the time, puts all their effort into the raid, and gets nothing or next to nothing for coming, will ditch us. Plain and simple. We can wish for people to come who have zero interest in gear, but that dream will only get you so far. Loot is pay. You dont pay your workers well, and they'll quit. Plain and simple. My last word on the issue is this; Kindring is so mechanical with loot, he might as well just be the 'click need/greed/pass'. His position is given to him purely out of some sense of equality between our guilds, and he has absolutely no sense of qualifications for handing out loot in my opinion.

But I digress...

We have had some big successes with the Silver Hammer, and I wont dispute that for a moment. But, it came at some big losses too. We had to step on veteran people and ask them to push through it with us. We had to put up with the blaringly obvious flaws in their loot distribution. We catered big time to their interests because they had the people. What started as a DisturbedOnes raid with Silver Hammer filling the remaining spots, seemed more to turn into a Silver Hammer raid with DisturbedOnes filling the remaining roles (dropping out to be replaced by pugs eventually). It's not just loot. It really isnt. It's the attitude. Lots of negativity was thrown back and forth between our raider and our officers alike. The raid started taking more importance over our own raiders... and sometimes it seemed, taking more importance over our own guild.

Again, it's not just the loot. It isnt! Any Tom, Dick, or Harry could distribute loot the same way, and everyone would still gripe and groan. It's how the loot is being distributed that people hate so much. Not who... but how. DKP, no DKP, veterancy, zero-sum, whatever... the one thing I learned about loot in all my years of playing, in all the pugs, in all the raids, in talking with all the raiders, the most important part of any loot system has to be strict itemization. It doesnt matter what loot system you use, so long as everyone knows that a certain item of gear went to the right person, no one cares nearly as much (except the one person who lost perhaps). The minute you pass an item to someone that wont benefit most from something, simply because they rolled higher than someone else, you just pissed on someone. You devalued yourself as someone who doesnt understand class mechanics. You've weakened your credibility with the best raiders in the group.

People wont want to raid with a leader and loot master who do not even understand the mechanics of the game for themselves. You're basically telling the raiders who excel above the others "yeah, I know that we just made the wrong choice, and we keep making the wrong choices, but I'm not going to do anything about it". Would you want to raid with someone like that? If I worked at your hospital, and I continuously paid doctors randomly out of a hat whether they deserved that pay or not, and I said I wasnt going to do anything about it, I should expect that the best doctors would probably bail on that hospital for better work conditions. It's not that they dont want to be there... or they're just greedy people somehow. They just dont want to see their work go for nothing. Or at the very least, they deserve some kind of explanation as to why such crap conditions arent changing.

As you say, "We are reviewed each year around a set of values that we call BECOME. Build partners, Extend Trust, Change now, Own it, Model excellence, and Exceed expectations."

How have you built partners? How are you extending trust to your raiders and guild? Why not change now the problems that are seemingly so obvious? How are you 'owning' this raid? It seems like our guild is a distant third behind everything else! How are you modeling excellence? What other raid leaders are you talking to or have talked to about how they run things? How they succeeded or failed? I know I was never asked questions like that about my successes. How are you exceeding the expectations of your guild and the raiders who come from it? Do you even know exactly what they expect from you? Have you asked them directly? Are you exceeding those expectations? There's alot in there that I cant say I'm all that confident about for you, Bo. And, I say that as someone who's been raiding with you for years now. Who's stuck with it for all, even if I do complain much. I'm still there for you, even if I'm not utilized as much as I might think I could be.

I see alot of "I", "me", "my" in some of these later paragraphs. "My goal", "what I love to do", and I understand that this post concerns your thoughts mostly. But, I think that's a way which you are commonly perceived and have been many times. That there isnt much concern for what others want as much as what you want. I chalk that up to communications failure, not any lack of commitment. I know you want to get ahead... I think everyone does. But, many people want to do that with "us" specifically. It's why it broke my heart so much to see someone like Arrdim shunned away, when he clearly was beyond committed to doing whatever it took to get into our raids (even going so far as to level an entirely new character all the way to 80 and gear them just to get into our 10man). If that didnt show commitment... then that's clearly part of the problem. Our commitment long ago was to get as far as we could by raiding 'casually'. Not putting harsh restrictions on people, not snubbing others because they arent good enough. If Arrdim needed help on something, he could have been approached about it to improve. Helioz was going to back out of my 10man because he said Archaus failed as dps. I told him straight out, that if he thought he knew more about dpsing as a DK, and he thought Archaus failed, then it better be his own responsibility to make Archaus succeed. Because I didnt know how to dps as a DK, and I admitted that. But, if Helioz knew? Then who better to work with him on dpsing better. And eventually, Archaus did get better. I chalk that success up to good commmunication.

If I've backed away at all from our raids or from the guild, it's because I dont feel needed. I think I've mentioned this before to you. I feel my efforts are ignored, my interests unheard, my concerns scrolling away in the chat window. I've felt pushed away or uncared for more times than I can really count, but I'm one of the few who keeps sticking it out. When the failures fail... it sucks... but when the successes succeed, it's big. And I love feeling part of that success. Not because I want loot, but because I enjoy feeling like I've contributed to a real team. I dont feel like I'm on the team right now. I'm there, sure. But, time and time again my interests are devalued. The cohesiveness is lost. It'd be nice in those time to be reminded that I'm still needed. That's what's so great about someone like Unvme. They make sure people are happy with what's happening. Take the time just to sit and talk with someone. They want to know when something isn't going right.

As for the post that changed your perspective... I found it really interesting; particularly the parts where his guild fought and the loot system seemed just to be 'tolerated' by him. I've said that my commitment is up there with that guy (just message Bo if you're reading this and dont understand). But, I never heard how I measured up in your eyes until I just asked you like 2 days ago. That's a problem. There needs to be more up front evaluation of a raider/officer on an individual basis. You need to let people know if they're doing great or sucking harshly. The 'no-response-is-a-good-response' isnt cool. It wont fly with most people. It will be taken badly.

So, this ends my little book. It's a blunt and forward outburst of raw feeling. Classic Oz style. The hope is that I'm not kicked from the raid or guild for it. It feels true to me, but it just as well might be totally ramblings. I dont have any plans to go anywhere else, but I do want to see everything carried out in a just and fair manner to as many people as possible; whether we succeed or not. Just know I've been there for you Bo for years now, and I'm still here even if I have gone quiet.


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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  Boman on Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:20 am

Don't get too nervous just yet brite! It's a long way away, and it was more of a general statement to say that we need to re-evaluate the time we're raiding so that we give ourselves enough time to progress through the content. Our current 25-man is an example. We need more time to progress. The time that we're raiding isn't enough and we'd be getting further if we had more time. But back in ToC it was plenty of time. So it depends on what faces us when we finally get to Cataclysm.

Oz... Oz... Oz... like a good cup of hot chocoloate I think I must stir it a bit before i drink it. Plus, I don't want to burn my mouth too badly Smile.

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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  Stalar on Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:52 pm

I just wanted to respond to the post as it relates to my situation. I love raiding with the guild, and hope to do so for a long time.

That being said, my problem is primarily with being able to consistently run ICC 25. I can do the Fri 25 man most of the time. But the Thursday raid has been difficult with my schedule. I understand and support everything you have said Bo. I have no problem running any raid, either progression team or alt recreation team (or whatever you called it, lol) when I am online. But I don't think I can commit to the new time requirements for the 25 progression team.

On a positive note, I would like to continue raiding on the 10 man progression team currently running on Saturday nights. As long as my numbers meet your standards. And I will stay late or whatever needs to be done to drop all bosses in ICC with this run at any cost. And that goes for any new 10 man content that comes out.

Its not that I don't want to run ICC 25 progression, its the scheduling and consistency that will make it very difficult for me.

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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  Daargo on Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:25 pm

Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer, Lord of the Rings Online, Vanguard and some others. These are games I've spent some time in as well as WoW.

Each one of them has their own little uniqueness. That said, once upon a time, there was a game called World of Warcraft. It was a great game. Then the masses and expansions came. I see WoW as de-evolving.

WoW isn't "just about loot" it is "only about loot." We only run Heroics to get badges to get gear to run what I consider craptastic gimmicky raid encounters. Why am I still playing? Because I really like DO and most, perhaps some, ok maybe a few, of the people in DO. I mean seriously, if I didn't like some of you, why the hell would I spend a perfectly good Friday night wiping on the same bosses for 15 hours. Well, along about 9pm server, it feels that long.

Nothing makes you feel better than succeeding at something hard. It is a contagious feeling also. With success, people keep coming back for more abuse.

Running a successful guild, or even just being a guild leader, takes a certain amount of thick skin and...masochism? I ran a guild in DAoC, and all I have to say is, never again. Bo, hats off to you for what you do for me and DO. I also know that, to run a successful organization, you have to have a leader that can switch from mentor to asshole as need be. Not pleasing everyone to not pleasing anyone is a fine line. WoW's central focus on loot makes this especially challenging.

We also need to note that, without Silver Hammer, we'd probably not be where we are. But, I would imagine we'd be a bit farther than they would be without us. Never-the-less it is a symbiotic relationship. Dissing on them won't get us anywhere.

And then there is loot. Personally, I NEVER go into a raid expecting to get loot. However, I think I may be in a minority on that. As far as a raid goes, the current loot system is a steaming pile of sheep poop. And I don't mean that in the good way.

Last night (April 15), a certain person won a roll for a ilevel 264 item that the only difference between it and what they were wearing was one item had +hit and the other had +haste (I think, may have been +crit). Same stats otherwise. I just shook my head because I know we had people in the raid it would have been a much bigger upgrade for. Personally, I favor loot council who distributes for the good of the raid. As long as we have to PUG people to fill the raid, we have to have a loot system that encourages people to PUG with us. I wouldn't PUG a raid that was into DKP because I knew I'd have no chance at any loot. Yeah, I said I never expected to get stuff, but if I'm in a PUG I'm after something.

In summary, we are not satisfied with our success because we are underachieving as a raid. It IS about loot otherwise it wouldn't be a point of contention that repeatedly comes up.

My recommendations are:

Restate the raid rules and enforce them.

Kicking people because they click on tenative is counter productive. I can then either click on decline and show up hoping for a spot, which is the same as tenative it would seem. Or I can accept and cancel at the last minute or just no show.

Establish a realistic loot distribution system. Yes, I do have some ideas.

Start the freakin raid on time. Wait, that was a rule.

New rule. After wiping on the same boss 3 times, either come up with a NEW and improved strategy, change the people around, or move on.

Establish a raid TO&E of classes. Such as 12 paladins, 12 DK's and a Druid (for battle rez of course).

3 Days a week for 4 hours each? That's not a hobby, that's a part time job.

Keep personal grievances off the public forums.

Encourage, no, demand, people read the damn forums. More people anyway.

More of this WoW strategy and less of this Common WoW mistakes
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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  helioz on Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:48 am

For me raiding is more then loot 4 me its a chance to play with people i like to think are my friends even if i only know u guys throw wow u feel closer to me then my friends in real life who think there to cool to be playing wow and just want to get high and hang out at the mall lol i know fags.Also love the feeling when u get from downing a boss u been failing at for a long time.I injoy are 10mans way more then 25 and iam with oz on loot i agree loot should be given to people it would help the most and know what gear will help there dps the most like a few things for ret pallys bis are leather and ap rings i know my class and what i need to be better.Not saying a noob comes in with blue gear that we should pass it to him cuz its a bigger upgrade. saying who would make better use of it say dps like fedand hes gear is good giveing him more gear is point less he cant make good use with what he has and its not only him alot of others to. iam not leet but i put my heart in every thing i do u dont have to suck to have fun. Get what iam trying to say? people should be doing more then 6k dps in icc 25 with 3k gears score skill first then when ur doing the best ur gear lets u then theres a point in getting gear oh and for the people that think i dont deserve getting the axe was gone for 5 weeks + i changed specs from holy and still come in top 5 in dps what boy eat that:) lol theres that ego agian damn i think i go it from ct and i respect bo and oz the same i have 2 raid leaders not 1 i want to raid with both of u not 1 or the other oh and oz Y U STOP TALKING IN VENT I MISS UR VOICE!!.And yes i know i cant type and its kinda random lol


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Raiding on my end

Post  Reinia on Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:49 am

I never started raiding with you guys for various reasons. My work schedule changes all the time. I need to take care of mom since she is disabled and going blind. Also, I've never been a full blown raider like some people. I just can't sit infront of the computer and do it. It hurts my eyes and it makes me want to hold in various body functions. That and raid times are when I have to go to bed real early to get up for work real early. It's just the way life is.

However, with my recent re-entry into raiding on Tuesday, a lot of people complaining about how slow things are going and the general snotty attitude that came from some reminds me on why I didn't like to raid in the first place. I will continue to do so because I want better gear. I want to see the content. I am also raiding with my sister on the new 10man raids that are just floating around. That means something to me that one person in the guild is taking his time to help me to the extent that I can't even describe how grateful I am and my sister, who I got to see play EverQuest, Second Life, and World of Warcraft is playing in the same raid group.

As far as loot, while it is a good thing, I don't see that as the major thing. I'm living in the old fashioned days when this game and this server was considered a RPG. So, in my mind, content is more than loot. Lore is fantastic drug and loot is a wonderful side effect. While I would like to see the guild that has taken me back 3 times progress and be the best, I am not liking how some act to get there.

I know that this probably opened up another can of worms, but I had to get my thoughts out there. I wish I could raid with the big boys and girls, but it is my own doing that I cannot do that. I have the wrong gear. I don't have a good understand of my class as I thought I did. All that will change but it will take time. I am comfortable with that.
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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  Aurisa on Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:51 pm

Okay it seems I should post something here. I'm not sure how this will go since I am not really one for long drawn out posts but it seems that the guild is at a pivitol time and I feel that as an officer of the guild and a long time member I should try to do my part. This may end up being an epic so grab some coffee and enjoy:)

With the expansion looming in the near future we have a good opportunity to restructure the guild and the raids into something that is better and hopefully good for everyone. I don't think things are terrible right now but I do see a lot of ways they could be better. I would like to start with our illustrious guild leader Bo. He started this thread and people have commented on his leadership so I'd like to add my two cents. After raiding with him for about 3 years now I can say he has come a long way. He and most of us back then had no idea really what we were doing. It is not easy being a guild leader and I have not not always agreed with him, I think even leaving the guild once or twice a long time ago, but as Daargo said earlier in the posts you can't please everyone all the time or something to that effect. This is very true and I think what needs to be said is that Bo and the other officers are always trying to figure out what's best and most fair for our raiders. I admiit we haven't always made the best decisions but it is a tough job. One of the ways I think we can improve in this in the future is to promote an atmosphere of free idea exchange. If the officers and the raiders and leaders are all open and discussing what we want to do and how we best achievce that, even if we come up short there will be a lot less frustration. The officers and GM will still have the final say in direction, I mean someone does have to lead, but it shouldn't be leading blindly.

Related to this last idea I think that us officers and others need to take a more active role in the guild. I admitt I am probably the quitest of the officers, I often prefer to hang back and take on more of an advisor type role but I think to make things happen me and some other people, leaders etc., need to step up and help out. Even if it is just helping people gear, recruiting for raids whatever, every little bit counts. This reminds me of Reinia's post, I think it is awesome that Gryn has started another 10 man for those not up Icc or just casual people. We need to do more things like this to be more inclusive to people. I will say it is hard for those of us that do all the ICC raids to find time for things like that but we do try where we can, like recently adding a 3rd ICC 10 man for alts or who ever wants to go. This also shows that you do not have to be an officer to start a raid:) Anyone that wants to can and should do so. Those people often end up becoming part of our leadership for thier initiative. Also we as officers will always help get the word out for those interested in said raids.

Now on the topic of raiding, for our progression higher end raids we do need a new system. I have always been kind of on the fence about raiding with The Silver Hammer. They have gotten a lot better as time progressed and there was a time when we couldn't fill a 25 man without them, still can't really. I do think though that we should part ways in Cat. The two guilds seem to have different ideas about what we want out of raids, we in DO are a bit more serious. There's nothing wrong with that, just different ways of playing. However to make our people happy and give them the progression we want I think we need to recruit more people into DO to fill a 25. I think it would be hard to get any two guilds to be totally cohesive, as much as you try to stop it there are always some people that will turn it into an us vs. them thing. And even if no one actively does that it seems to come up a lot. It is a lot harder to make rules when there are so many peope to deal with from different sides. I remember back in naxx when it was all DO it was far easier. We did have some conflicts but they were smaller and easier to resolve since everything was internal.

I think we need to try to start cat similar to the way we did wrath. We should from several 10 mans to include everyone. They do not have to be run by officers, anyone who is competent can voluteer to lead a raid. This will involve getting more people in the guild and helping some of our newer guildies get ready for raiding but we can do it. I remember when we started wrath Oz and I had maybe 4 guildies signed on for our 10 man, we thought we would have to cancel but we tried and pugged and we ended up with a good group including Helioz(loved your post btw) who has stayed with us til this day:), as well as others who have come and gone from the guild through our raids. I got side tracked but I think my point was even if our recruiting doesn't get all the people we need you never know what can happen with a pug and many that like our raids do stay and join the guild:)

Now on to the dreaded topic: loot. Personally I dont think the game is all about loot but yes it is a big part of it. I was never one to complain about loot, if I don't win a roll I'll get it eventually if I keep coming to raids; however, that being said I have been a bit upset in the past at consistantly losing something I wanted for a long time to pugs. It does suck. So I believe some kind of loot system is necessary because not everyone is that pateint and well if you come all the time you should get something to show for it. Personally I liked dkp when we were using it. It may be a bit hard for pugs but we did have pugs that won things due to people haveing negative dkp. Evertually the people that come all the time spend their dkp and that opens up opportunity for newer people. And because you have to spend to get items people can't really waste it on minor upgrades at high levels, most likely they won't have it to spend by that point and if they do they have everything they need. I was even thinking well maybe we do dkp but give pugs 100 dkp for coming, it would give them something so they feel the have a chance but it still wouldn't pput them above most of the regular raiders. I'm sure there is some fault with that idea but it seems to be a "not to bad" way to deal with it.

Next point: preformance. I think we do need to hold our raiders to some stardards (for the prgression raids). We have been saying for a long time now we will be more strict and come down on people that consistantly don't preform as well as others but we haven't. Mostly because believe it or not we are nice people and we don't want to kick people from raids. I know there has been people in raids bitching about other people's gear or dps or whatever but if you notice that NEVER comes from us officers. We do see these things but we do NOT condone people putting others down for any reason in our raids. People have been kicked from raids for doing that. What we do need to do is take those a side that aren't meeting the raid requirements and work with them so that they do. By no means should anyone be made to feel bad for just trying to see content or get some better gear or just because they like raiding. That being said another part to that is the raiders, if you see you are consistantly below others and not doing as much as you want to be doing ASK US! Between the officers and the leaders in the guild I know we have everything covered, someone will know how to help you or have some good advice. And none of those people will ever make fun of you for it. We have a few helpful people in guild but I think we should all be helpful people(myself included, I may be quiet but I promise I don't bite, more times then not I will help you out if it isn't raid time).
Well I think that is most of what I want to say. If there is more maybe I will even write a second epic. For the record you guys rock and I think we can make this guild a great place for everyone.

~Aurisa
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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  Nezrathii on Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:21 pm

man I always miss major stuff when my account is down =( I can only hope that I get everything back soonish, I spent all of yesterday wiping my computer of potential threats and then changing every single password I have and now today I can't log in for some reason with the new password I had just made and when I go to the "forgot your password" link it says it is down. bleh. The characters on my girlfriends part of the account have all gotten the majority of what they were missing back (gear/stuff in bags and some gold) but none of my characters have. Out of my 8 characters on Cenarion Circle only one (my lvl 29 horde) wasn't completely wiped out- for some reason they either didn't have time to wipe him out or just didn't care by that point. So that plus all the stuff they took from the guild bank on Serv makes me think it could be the end of the week before I even start to get any news about my gear/items. DON"T LET THINGS GET CRAZY OUT OF HAND WHILE IM OUT!!! And try to have fun- its a game meant to activate the reward/pleasure centers of your brain don't let that become an addictive fix that you argue over like crack addicts in a dark alleyway! Miss you all- hackers must die!

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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  Boman on Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:22 am

So many things I have to say but I will leave them for another day... for now...

The Road Not Taken:
Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveller, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference

-Robert Frost

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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  Nezrathii on Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:48 pm

YAY Robert Frost!!! my personal favorite is Fire and Ice =P wonder why

Fire and Ice

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

-Robert Frost

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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  Aurisa on Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:50 pm

Nezrathii wrote:don't let that become an addictive fix that you argue over like crack addicts in a dark alleyway!

Crack?
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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  Ozmademos on Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:37 am

It occurred to me that my post might need some summarizing or clarifying at least. So, here's a commentary a short and sweet look...

From the looks of it, Bo didnt really ask questions specifically in his post (except at the very end), but from what I gathered, the overall theme I took Bo to be asking about was: I didnt see Bo asking, "why arent we succeeding?" because we technically are succeeding in many ways. We might be doing well and succeeding for the most part, but I see Bo asking, "how can we take it that one step farther? or make things a little more smooth?"

To that end, my post really wasnt intended to be just all wrath and arms flailing. It also wasn't really anything to be all Bo-bashing. It's my thoughts on things I've seen and may have had an issue with. My own personal theory on what might changes could effect things for the better. If anything, it's just a passionate outburst. Like most of the things I feel strongly about, it gets my full energy and attention.


you finally mentioned how strained you were over our progress (or lack thereof). How you had to make a split decision over something fast. How people were messaging you fairly constantly with various stuff (mostly complaints and annoying requests). Up till then, it hadnt much occurred to me how many people probably whisper you, or the decisions you have to make really fast.

I emphathized with you here Bo when I whispered you long ago about that. And after running my own raid, I found that the whispers and people wanting to come as couples or triples... or only want to come if they can roll on 2 or 3 specs... or not wanting to come if so and so is coming... or the people who really want to come but arent geared/skilled enough to come... all that stuff started to really sink in. I started to sympathize with you about alot of that.


You want to raid, and you will raid even if that means not taking people from the guild or regulars. You're going to raid. Not so much 'we', since 'we' can easily be left out or replaced; or so the feeling goes. If you werent going be able to make the raid, there wasnt a clear secondary person to pick up and get things going. No other go-to guy. I seemed to be getting this feeling that you felt like you had to do everything yourself! That no one could help you, no one else could really be relied on to stand next to you, no one could take over in your absence. It was all your burden, and you werent going to let anyone help you take a bit of the load off your shoulders.

This is just something I have been a little concerned about. There are times when our 25man seems more important than the guild itself. And, you dont really need to be the guild master, the raid leader, the loot master, and whatever other leadership role might pop up, all the time. Rarely are you in a raid where you dont try to take on everything at once. Try letting someone else shoulder some of that!


the claim was that all our hard work... all our time spent... all our team effort... everything... was just luck? just happen-stance? our raiders just happened to stay randomly? I wont lie... that was a huge slap in the face to me and my 10man. We didnt just happen to get lucky doing what we did. We worked hard together as a group. People trusted me as a leader. I communicated frequently with them; making sure that the raid they got was the raid they wanted. And when I couldnt give them exactly what they needed, I explained why it wasnt possible. I never tried to leave someone unanswered. I thought of it like customer service, and I wanted these customers coming back!

I was actually really offended about this.


A person who comes all the time, puts all their effort into the raid, and gets nothing or next to nothing for coming, will ditch us. Plain and simple. We can wish for people to come who have zero interest in gear, but that dream will only get you so far. Loot is pay. You dont pay your workers well, and they'll quit.

and


The minute you pass an item to someone that wont benefit most from something, simply because they rolled higher than someone else, you just pissed on someone. You devalued yourself as someone who doesnt understand class mechanics. You've weakened your credibility with the best raiders in the group.

I'm just leaving that at that.


Helioz was going to back out of my 10man because he said Archaus failed as dps. I told him straight out, that if he thought he knew more about dpsing as a DK, and he thought Archaus failed, then it better be his own responsibility to make Archaus succeed. Because I didnt know how to dps as a DK, and I admitted that. But, if Helioz knew? Then who better to work with him on dpsing better. And eventually, Archaus did get better. I chalk that success up to good commmunication.

True story.


I enjoy feeling like I've contributed to a real team. I dont feel like I'm on the team right now. I'm there, sure. But, time and time again my interests are devalued. The cohesiveness is lost.

This is more something in the current 25man. The 10man feels good. Naxx25 felt really good too.


You need to let people know if they're doing great or sucking harshly. The 'no-response-is-a-good-response' isnt cool. It wont fly with most people. It will be taken badly.

That's pretty straightforward, but it is something I think I've noticed and heard from others.
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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

Post  Boman on Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:37 pm

Hi All,

As always, I appreciate the time and effort taken by all of you that participate out here on our forums. Though at it's heart wow is a game, it goes so far beyond that. Unlike some of you, wow is my first real experience in an MMO in a serious way. It's also a social experiment, and in some ways the social aspects of it is what makes it the most challenging. And the most rewarding.

I'm not really going to respond to the statements above because I think people are entitled to their opinions. I do, in fact, disagree with many of them. I am who I am, which is probably something a little bit different for everyone that knows me. That's life. If you really want an answer to something and ask me in-game, I'll answer you.

I have recently stopped removing from the invites for a given week those that decline or select tentative. Kindring volunteered to go back through our last month of raids to see who our consistent raiders are and try to prune invites down to our most solid 25. What brought this about? I agree with Daargo's post.

As a final thought to the post, because I think it's important enough to be said... If you are one of the people that are:

1. Always late to raids (not ready for invite 15 minutes prior)
2. Always complaining
3. Frequently AFK
4. Not communicating when you can't make it
5. Getting upset about loot
6. Not trying to get better

then as far as I'm concerned you are being disrespectful to me, to the raid, and to the guild. These things should be the exception, not the rule.

If you feel that you need to be disruptive because you are upset enough that you don't care if you raid or not, you are impacting all of those people that do care and do want to raid. So you should gracefully exit the raid. On a personal level I might miss you, but really it has no place in the raid.

I will do my best to keep things together. If people want to question why I do what I do - it's probably because I'm an idiot. But if you're going to do something, do it well!

-Boman

Boman

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Join date : 2008-10-26

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Re: State of Raiding 4/12/2010

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