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Minimum Requirements

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Minimum Requirements

Post  Boman on Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:17 am

Kindring and I have been talking about minimum requirements and performance standards. If we were to implement them, what would they be, what would they mean, and what would they be used for. Everyone should note that players have been improving! A few still need some work, but last night overall was impressive. We could have downed Anub'arak with more time. There are a handful of people that still concern me, but I'm more concerned about people not getting on early for invites and our consistently starting 30+ minutes late. I have a few thoughts on that combined with the initial question about performance requirements. I'm listing them individually as they can all be considered independently.

1. We recruit another 5+ people into the guild for raiding. Most needed are healers, followed by ranged dps. These are their main specs. We keep recruiting until we consistent fill up with 25 people before the raid start time.
2. Priority for spots is given to those people who generally meet or exceed the minimum requirements. We don't currently have this problem, but if more than 25 invites were on when spots were being filled that's when this would come into play. If you want to be guaranteed your spot, you are meeting or exceeding the requirements and you are online when invites start. From what I'm seeing now, this would impact less than 20% of our normal raiders.
3. Priority for loot is given to those people who generally meet or exceed the performance requirements. I'll be listing my thoughts on the requirements below, but this would mean that if you don't usually meet or exceed the requirements you are considered neutral for veterancy purposes (ie: regardless of how long you've been raiding with us, you still roll like you were new or a pug in terms of priority).
4. I keep debating in my head having 2 levels. A minimum requirements which means you get a spot (#2) and recommended requirements which means you get loot priority (#3). But overcomplicating isn't necessarily good either. And we will keep pushing people to get to recommended requirements whether they like it or not. With Icecrown you can be sure these numbers will be higher. I can envision all dps needing 5k+ and all healers at 2.5-3k+. But that's pure speculation on my part. And let's not forget that when Ulduar 25 first came out 4k was the generally accepted minimum dps requirement.

MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS:
This means that you are generally able to perform at or above the indicators given. As people have stated in other posts, we are not hardcore and we do realize that. Our goal for raiding is to be open to as many people as possible while still being able to clear the current content at least on normal difficulty. My personal opinion as to these requirements is that anyone who wants to can very easily meet these by simply knowing how to play their class and using gear readily available from badges. There is no reason not to be performing at these levels. This is less than what the best players could do coming out of Naxx 25! Also, as a note, in terms of numbers it's less than 5 people that consistently raid with us that don't currently met these standards. Hopefully this would give them a reason to want to seek help and improve. Our goal isn't to make people want to leave, it's to have everyone performing at a reasonable level.

The numbers below were not randomly selected out of a hat. They were simply based upon me reviewing our performance logs week after week and seeing what progress we make based upon the numbers people are putting out. If everyone in the raid only met the minimums we would not be successful. To give an example, Aurisa and Nightjade are capable of performing at 3k hps. Helioz threw over 6k dps out last night. So just to re-iterate, our goal isn't to set unrealistic expectations for people. Our goal is to push everyone to performing reasonably.

DPS: 3.5k minimum, 4k+ preferred
HEALS: 2k minimum
TANK: 1.5k minimum, able to hold threat consistently and not die repeatedly. Main spec tanks that generally perform dps or healing duties should meet the requirements above for their off-spec as that is what they primarily do.

Tanking is harder to define than the other 2 - but for our tanks we also have a lot of consistency and don't need as many as we do healers and dps.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts. As always I'd love to hear whatever feedback you might have.

-Boman

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Re: Minimum Requirements

Post  Ctulhu on Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:38 pm

I think we shouldn't base DPS requirements on a flat number but everyone should be within 20% of our top performers or maybe award people with loot priority if they are high above the average....
Example.
Raider 1-7000 DPS
Raider 2-6500
Raider 3-6000
Raider 4-5500
Raider 5-5000
Raider 6-4000
Raider 7-4000
Raider 8-4000
Raider 9- 3500
Raider 10- 3000

That would put the average at 4850, meaning players who beat that would get priority over people under it. OR seeing as the top DPS is 7000, only people at 5600+ DPS would get priority based on the 20% rule.

I was thinking 10% but that means everyone would need to be within 700 of the top and that seems like it would be favorable to only 1-2 people as opposed to benefitting the top half or so of the raiders.
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Re: Minimum Requirements

Post  helioz on Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:08 am

i like ur guys IDEARS!! but we should talk 1on1 with the people that are not pulling the numbers to ask y they cant.Stuff like crap internet or pc can make even good players look bad and is something we can't help with that is up to them be4 we try to help them. also people need to be a bit more open to criticism we are all on the same team maybe the guy saying u should be doing more dps with that gear is right. Sometimes jokes get out of hand i try to joke with people i know that can take it.It would be best if bo or oz kindering idk if i spelled it right RAWR!! DONT JUGE ME LOL talk to these people first i get put on ignore alot like few times i got put on ignore for out dpsing some1 silly i know any ways thats what i got i was very sleepy when i made this just so u know.
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Re: Minimum Requirements

Post  Boman on Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:14 am

All good points. As you know, Kinding, Oz, Aurisa, Nightjade, and I are all talking to people. We've already seen some great improvements, so maybe for now we just keep this up and see if it continues. The reason I favor simplicity is because I enjoy raiding with the group we have and I'm careful not to lose people. I want people to want to improve - and if someone is showing effort and wanting to improve then I don't want them to feel like we're trying to punish them if they can't be way up there. If someone underperforms week after week and isn't trying to improve, then that's a different story. I know people have lives, but I also know 1 hour of research and standing in front of the test dummy's can do a world of good.

I remember back in late Naxx25 when Silencetria was doing terrible dps compared to Telian, even though he was better geared. I talked to him about it, and the following week his dps was significantly better. From spending an hour working on his rotation and spec. The idea of loot based on a minimum performance is really just as incentive. Everyone can get to those numbers. I'd rather not base loot on a tiered system of performance because then it's favoring our best players - which is not our goal. Our goal is to favor our most consistent players that show up week after week and perform at a reasonable level. Well, my goal anyway!

As a group we are now capable of clearing ToC25 - at least some weeks. That is an accomplishment and we owe it to all of our players (DO and SH alike) that come week after week. After a few days of thinking about it, I'm starting to lean more towards not adding any loot restrictions beyond veterancy. But we do need to be planning for Icecrown. So I think we need more raiders (filling up 30-45 minutes late does not work), and perhaps spot preference is based on minimum performance (once again, I don't want to punish someone that comes consistently if they can perform reasonably). A small change, but wouldn't you want to get a little better if you were a backup otherwise? Some people might not care, and right now we have trouble filling up anyway... but the IDEAR seems ok to me. Maybe it's not, but that's why I throw it out here... not well thought out.

We haven't talked about it yet - and I haven't talked with Kindring about it yet. But when it comes to Shadowmourne my personal opinion is that's when we should favor only our very best player(s) in terms of who might get it - and yes, I also feel it should be someone who has been and will be consistent in terms of raiding. And we should make that clear before we start Icecrown so that there is no confusion about it.

Anyway, late for work. Laters!

-Boman

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Re: Minimum Requirements

Post  Nezrathii on Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:59 pm

I definately prefer the individual approach or at least to start- definately a better thing to talk about this one on one with people rather than decide to make it a blanket thing- and in my mind at least, those who are consistantly coming should be treated with as much respect as possible even if they aren't up to minimum requirements- perhaps some minimum requirements for newer incoming people would be good though to set the standard high to begin with. Though it is hard to judge that except in actual performance - gear scores and armory are all well and good but none of those make a player competent so unfortunately everything would have to be a trial basis until it was known what they were truely capable of in a raiding experience (for incoming peoples)

OH and as for continuously starting late perhaps it might be a good idea to question the times we start? Are people coming on late perhaps because of work times or things like that? I know it would suck to push our raid times back any but if people who constantly come are unable to make it on time perhaps this should be discussed and considered. I don't personally have a problem with this because of my class schedule and everthing else (unless I have extra homework in which case I unfortunately opt out of raiding) but I know that I've heard many people who seem to be the ones who come with us constantly- having just come home from work or w/e when we are raiding. anyway its a possibility. Though it is a minority of people in that situation (or at least seems to be since we usually have around 16-18 people who are ready on time) it might be wise to consider this.

AND now Bar Day for seminar woo wonder if I should get drunk during "class"

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