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REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

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REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Boman on Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:55 am

Hello Everyone,

As you all know, I was originally planning to wait until Ulduar before making any changes to our DKP system. I've been rethinking this position and would like to hear what everyone things of the below proposal. That doesn't mean more changes won't come with Ulduar, I'm sure they will. These changes may or may not happen so, once again, please post your thoughts:

1. All Rings and Trinkets reduced to 50dkp.
2. All weapons increased to 150dkp. (including ranged weapons)
3. No more reduced cost for Off-spec but...
4. Alternate items of equal iLevel cost 25dkp

To clarify #4, if you are wearing a main-spec item of the same or higher iLevel, you are eligible to roll as an alternate piece. This will take the place of our off-spec roll. Instead people may roll off-spec during the initial roll and if no main spec needed they would get but for full dkp price.

Another option would be to keep off-spec rolls, so have a 3rd round of rolling. It's a balance of time for looting vs progressing through the instance as quickly as possible.

Thanks,

-Boman

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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Telian on Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:45 pm

an interesting idea, Bo and i like where its going too
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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Mirtas on Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:54 pm

i like the side grade rolls, for one i know there are items that i would like to have if i going to switch over to another specc, i basically have gear for any spec, hence the fact i have spent over 1k dkp already, its only the bad luck that i have missed some raids due to pc probs and family matters. but for me upgrade is upgrade, and even side grades for a spec i am thinking of running i will bid on it.

<3 the #4

and no need for offspec roles.


Btw boman what addon you use that shows ilevels?
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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Nightjade on Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:53 pm

I would agree with those changes, but I would also like to see some penaltys added to the rules. Nothing hurts the speed of a raid more than people leaving the raid early. Everyone know the times we raid, if they accept the invite, they are saying that they can stay the entire run. There should be more DKP awarded on the backend of the run ( staying until the end ) and minimum in the beginning.

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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Boman on Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:32 pm

How about this:

1. DKP for Time Spent is awarded on the hour (the addon can do this automatically)
2. DKP for Boss Kills is awarded at the end of the run only, and only to those members in the raid. So if you had to leave early, unfortunately you won't get DKP for boss kills. If nothing else, you'll think twice and try really hard not to leave early. Things will still come up, but the understanding will be there.

Just some thoughts. As always... comments?

-Boman

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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Aurisa on Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:50 pm

I will again state I do not think there is anything wrong with the way our dkp system works now, but as it seems it's going to be changed anyway...

1. I do like the idea of rings and trinkets being 50dkp, these are things that some people may pass up otherwise so it would help with what some believe is a dkp hording problem.

2. I don't agree with off-spec being full dkp. No off-spec person is going to win over a main spec as it stands anyway, so if an item drops and no one of that main spec wants and would be sharded otherwise, why would someone want to spend extra dkp for an offspec? I think this will lead to more people not rolling for off-spec items they might actually want. (As a side note to this, I never roll on off-spec, I'm holy and always will be, so this doesn't even effect me but I still don't agree with it)

3. I agree with Nightjade's point on people leaving raids early. I do think there should be penalties. We all know when the raids are and if you don't that is your fault for not knowing because it is always posted on this site or you can even ask another guildie. If you come, expect to stay for the whole time. It holds up the raid and hampers progress when someone just decides they don't feel like staying, or knew they couldn't stay for the whole time when they started and didn't tell anyone. I think that anyone without a valid reason or that doesn't let a raid leader know ahead of time should be subject to a dkp penalty for leaving early.

~Aurisa
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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Boman on Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:39 am

Aurisa,

To your point about off-spec - off-spec being full dkp would be there for those people that MUST have an off-spec item. Otherwise, they would be able to get it for 25dkp during the "alternate" spec roll. The basic idea is to generate more interest in items and hopefully start sharding less. Some other classes are often interested in alternate items that they consider off-spec for their dps but don't roll because it's full dkp. This just evens out the playing field.

The only catch is having an equivalent or higher iLevel item. Which most people should have anyway in their main spec set. If they don't, it's another incentive for them to roll on some main spec upgrades.

-Boman

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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Ozmademos on Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:53 pm

While I do like the idea of these kinds of changes, I'd only caution that we not end up losing sight of people's "needs" in terms of gear. While trinkets in general are something that people will usually acquire and stick with for a long time, weapons are something I've noticed can be something of a difficult issue that we'd want to talk more about. It doesnt overtly say it, but an offhand item is technically a weapon item, as also a wand or "relic" item is. I know there are some weapons that people say are "the best ... in the game for ..." but doing this would seem to favor the people who who use 2h weapons over the people who duel wield as part of their main spec (or like me use a 1h and an offhand). Anyone not using a 2h weapon would end up having to pay double for their main spec use (unless we wanted to add a further level to our priority system and say that certain people get half off on offhands?). In addition, Hunters actually make use of their "relic" item, being a gun/bow/crossbow, much more than a warrior or rogue, who primary use is for pulling or stats. Paladins cannot duel wield at all, and can only use 2h for the best dps, but only use specific "relic" items of which there are extremely few. Priests and mages can make use of their wands as weapons should mana be too low or some situation calls for it, but primiarly use the stats from it.

That being said, my general first thoughts towards anything in our guild is how a person might undermine the system. I think part of this is a desire to cheat the cheaters before they have the chance to cheat us. And, something like changes 3 and 4 make me think one thing... "everyone pass as 'offspec' so no one has to pay 100 dkp". I understand the idea is to charge the people who simply have to have a certain offspec item more (4 times more in fact). But, I cant say that anyone would be so willing to take an item they are going to really want for full price. Even now, people arent taking items they could have for 50dkp... charging them 100 dkp will simply seal the deal entirely that they'll never roll for them.

The other thing is the idea of gauging what offspec items a person can roll for based on what their mainspec level item is? Or, is it that ANY offspec will still have to pay 100 dkp, but if absolutely no one wanted something a person could pay 25 dkp for an item they might want to try using for mainspec? (Which, of course, first thing comes to my mind is "sure... I'll use that as part of my mainspec sometimes... I'm totally sure that it's not offspec... since I'd have to pay 100dkp for it otherwise".) The idea of changing offspec rolls like this is simply more work in my opinion than we need.

I'd say our best bet is to sit down one day and set out a priority list, and define what main-spec and off-spec really are for various items with regards to class and spec. While this sounds hellish, I can assure you that the list practically fills itself in for the most part with the majority of classes and specs.

(Incidentally, I keep a list just such as this in my noodle for group 2 to ensure that people arent snatching gear that really doesnt belong to them unless no one wants it)

On a related note... punishments. We need em. People should not really be showing up late, leaving early, afking for more than 2-3min, distracting people in vent, dying constantly on fights we've been involved in for months now, degrading others in any fashion, and generally not being involved in the few hours we're setting out to accomplish things as a guild. People should, however, be showing up on time or even be a little early, staying the whole SCHEDULED raiding time, ready for each pull or taking short afks, attentive of each boss fight (and possibly sitting out if they can seem to manage the fight), being at least courteous to others even when joking around (or silent if they can handle that), and generally being part of our 1 raid as opposed to just one of 25 people.
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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Daargo on Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:36 pm

Oz has a good point that I agree with. This would make a dual wielding Hunter have to spend 450 DKP on weapons while a staff wielding Druid would only have to spend 150 DKP. Just doesn't sound exactly fair.

Penalties...(punishments has such a negative connotation) first time offense or repeat offenders? Stuff comes up, we all have it. Should be a grace in there before we start penalizing everyone. Minus 50 DKP for the buffoon that face pulls the spider room/instructor and wipes the raid? If you have to leave early but provide your own replacement? Will punishments be applied unilaterally or will there be a council/committee thing? Group vote? Appeal process? Damn lawyers.

Dual-speccing is coming, dual-speccing is coming. I was planning to dual spec Balance-Restoration. In my eyes, this could give the raid group some added flexibility. (Bring it on Mages. Your choice of Fire-Arcane-Frost against my DPS-Healing.) Am I going to be penalized for collecting healing gear or should I reconsider and start stocking up on Feral gear?

As Oz mentioned, Totems, Librams, Idols, Off-hand items...where do these fall? (Off Hand should = weapon for cost, IMO)

I think the current point costs are ok. Changing them might break them, more.

While I'm at it...greed. It has occurred in the last few weeks, and since we have many of us have DKP to burn, bidding on a certain item that is at best a lateral upgrade (eg, 30 haste versus 30 crit) while we do have guild members that the same item could be a major upgrade. I see this as form of DKP abuse. Maybe a little intervention on the behalf of our less fortunate guild members to get them geared also?
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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Boman on Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:04 pm

So I'm seeing that our best progression into Ulduar will be making some adjustments, but maybe not to the extreme. After considering all the posts, my current thinking is as follows:

1. Item costs will be fixed and stay as they are now (for initial item - see below).
2. Offspec will be replaced by Alternate.
3. You've already seen cases of this, but DKP will be given at the end of the run (defined by the schedule, not the raid), so those that are not able to stay until the end will not receive DKP for boss kills. Time DKP is awarded on the hour as we go.
4. DKP penalties will be applied in extreme situations at the discretion of the raid leader.

I would still like to change up how Alternate items are handled. I'm still open to more discussion on the cost, whether it should be full-price, 50%, or even less (and I'm open to less because it gives people the ability to get alternate items without using all their DKP for those main spec needs). Having said that, here are a few suggestions:

1. If you currently have an equivalent iLevel item, you would not roll main spec it would be an Alternate roll. This should help spread out the loot and get more people geared. Though it could also cause people to hold out for that 1 particular item they really want.

Please let me know your thoughts. I'll try to post more later as I have to cut this a bit short.

Thanks,
-Boman

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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Ozmademos on Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:35 pm

As always... I'll champion the cause to get one-handers and off-hands cost half as much.

Other than that, I think that the addition of these Alternate rolls would make the priority go something like this: In a roll between two players (let's say) the winner would be...

1) Main-spec with a lower item level and higher dkp
2) Main-spec with an equivalent item level and higher dkp
3) Off-spec with higher dkp

Is this how it would go?

If so, I would say the question to ask is, how much use would the item be for that player? Are there many fights where people switch out gear, or is it just primarily that people collect a general set of gear to use?

If we'd like people to experiment with other gear, while not slighting the other members of the raid, then we'd probably just charge perhaps 1/4th dkp, since people wont necessarily be getting a real upgrade from it but it's still part of their main-set.
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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Boman on Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:48 pm

To answer Daargo's question of greed, I think that having the iLevel clause in there helps to give those with lesser gear the edge in rolling. And with Dual Specs, I think we have the potential for great benefit to the raid, which is why an alternate spec roll seems so appealing. And having reduced dkp for it will hopefully keep people rolling more often and sharding less. Because a priority for people will still be to gear their main spec, so if the dkp cost is too high it won't make sense to gear up for dual spec right away.

The alternate spec roll starts to become a free for all, which is why I think it's important to have something such as the "must already have an equivalent iLevel item" clause helps for this as well.

-Boman

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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Ctulhu on Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:26 pm

I'm gonna agree with Ozzy here....
If Helioz wants his BiS weapon, and it cost him 100 DKP, it's gonna cost me twice as much to get up to the same gear level as him, simply because I am dual wielding. I can also see a problem though when it comes to TG warriors, they need two two-handers....Kinda gonna screw them over period
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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  Boman on Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:19 pm

Ulduar appears to be... now. Amazing how things sneak up on you even though you know they are coming. After considering all the comments we've gotten, I'm leaning towards the following:

Main Spec:
Tier: 150dkp*
Item: 100dkp*

Alternate Spec: (Must have iLevel equivalent item)
Tier: 50dkp (33%)*
Item: 25dkp (25%)*

* base price based on item level. This will be for the standard drops. Higher item level drops will cost more.

Players who consistently pass on upgrades may be excluded from future raids.

In addition, decaying dkp will be in place from the start this time so those that don't show up week after week will lose dkp naturally.

-Boman

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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  helioz on Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:53 pm

first post sounds good to me so bord waiting to log in but bizz sucks with thing getting done in time
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Re: REQUEST FOR COMMENT: Immediate DKP Changes

Post  ganjr on Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:49 pm

isnt that the truth

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