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DKP Hurting Our Raiding

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DKP Hurting Our Raiding

Post  Daargo on Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:04 am

TLDR version: Raid members are not taking upgrades that could help the raid.

I've never been shy about spending my DKP. If something was an upgrade, I bid on it. I'm happy with my results. However, DKP is becoming a detriment to our raid progression.

As of this writing, we have 162 Abyss Shards in the bank. Seems more than enough to meet our needs. In last nights 25 Naxx run, we sharded probably 20 items. I paid a little more attention to what was being sharded, or more correctly, what was NOT being bid on. Being a little nosy, I inspected some potential users. There were at least half a dozen items that were sharded that ranged anywhere from minor upgrades to one item in particular that was a substantial upgrade for some of our group members. These items were not bid on because "I'm saving my DKP for XX item."

The problem is that these minor upgrades people are passing all add up raid wise. A few spell power/attack power here, a little haste there, etc, maybe per individual don't seem like much, but spread out over 25 people can add up really fast.

We need to force some of the drops on our raid members at a reduced DKP cost. By not bidding on these upgrades, they are holding back overall raid progression just for a chance at the ONE item. This is a side effect of not having a DKP cap. People just save all their DKP for a chance at the ONE item. It's like starving yourself Monday-Friday just so you can eat steak and ice cream on Saturday.

Passing on upgrade items just so you have a chance at the one item off of the last boss hurts you and the raid overall. Better overall raid gearing speeds up the raid so we don't have to spend 6 hours clearing Naxx and wiping over and over on Thaddius. Better overall raid gearing means we can move on to doing Sarth-what's-his-name Obsidian Sanctum with more Drakes up. Better overall raid gearing means we can do Malygos. Better overall raid gearing means we will have more success in Uldar when it comes out.

Stop being so individually greedy in that you have to save all your damn DKP for a chance at one item and pick up the little upgrades along the way. These little items all can add up to more of a bonus than that one item you have to have.

I'm not saying throw out the DKP system, but damn, why do we continue to shard items that people actually need and can help the raid? Some changes/modifications/addmendments/provisions should be made.
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Re: DKP Hurting Our Raiding

Post  Mirtas on Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:57 pm

hear hear!!,

sometimes myself tho i will pass on an item if i know it will better be used by another person, but otherwise when i see an upgrade for me i look for it an i take, i even take stuff that i know i would use if i decided to change spec (Mages spec require different gear) thats why it was easy for me to switch to arcane when i wanted to.

But ppl are to scared to roll for anything, that is why last night when something drop she could use i told Kharm to roll her heart out, cuz if no one else wanted she atleast would get geared. I am still with a low weapon, 408 spellpower but you don't see me hoarding dkp to get a better weapon, because if i see an upgrade otherwise i take it.
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Re: DKP Hurting Our Raiding

Post  Regihomestar on Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:43 pm

Daargo wrote:TLDR version: Raid members are not taking upgrades that could help the raid.

I've never been shy about spending my DKP. If something was an upgrade, I bid on it. I'm happy with my results. However, DKP is becoming a detriment to our raid progression.

As of this writing, we have 162 Abyss Shards in the bank. Seems more than enough to meet our needs. In last nights 25 Naxx run, we sharded probably 20 items. I paid a little more attention to what was being sharded, or more correctly, what was NOT being bid on. Being a little nosy, I inspected some potential users. There were at least half a dozen items that were sharded that ranged anywhere from minor upgrades to one item in particular that was a substantial upgrade for some of our group members. These items were not bid on because "I'm saving my DKP for XX item."

The problem is that these minor upgrades people are passing all add up raid wise. A few spell power/attack power here, a little haste there, etc, maybe per individual don't seem like much, but spread out over 25 people can add up really fast.

We need to force some of the drops on our raid members at a reduced DKP cost. By not bidding on these upgrades, they are holding back overall raid progression just for a chance at the ONE item. This is a side effect of not having a DKP cap. People just save all their DKP for a chance at the ONE item. It's like starving yourself Monday-Friday just so you can eat steak and ice cream on Saturday.

Passing on upgrade items just so you have a chance at the one item off of the last boss hurts you and the raid overall. Better overall raid gearing speeds up the raid so we don't have to spend 6 hours clearing Naxx and wiping over and over on Thaddius. Better overall raid gearing means we can move on to doing Sarth-what's-his-name Obsidian Sanctum with more Drakes up. Better overall raid gearing means we can do Malygos. Better overall raid gearing means we will have more success in Uldar when it comes out.

Stop being so individually greedy in that you have to save all your damn DKP for a chance at one item and pick up the little upgrades along the way. These little items all can add up to more of a bonus than that one item you have to have.

I'm not saying throw out the DKP system, but damn, why do we continue to shard items that people actually need and can help the raid? Some changes/modifications/addmendments/provisions should be made.

Hmm... *thinks about Last Laugh, then thinks of other gear*

Gear first, Last Laugh later.

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Re: DKP Hurting Our Raiding

Post  Ozmademos on Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:58 pm

my personal opinion that I've made a comment about in other places is that the dkp is not so much to blame, as things like Atlas Loot and wow-loot.com

these things taint the dkp system by telling people there's some very rare item that they could possibly have if they wait long enough to get it. I know we cant restrict the use of things like altas, but we can possibly compromise with the people who do want to hold out for certain items...

I think we all know someone who knows about a certain item that they want to conserve dkp for, but suppose we actually found out how many people might want the item that might drop? And if we found alot of people, maybe offering a bidding of some sort that others could enter into if they could afford the dkp (so no offering 50 million dkp and going under zero)with each new run. Simply put, the bidding would continue with each run and possibly finalizing on a price that would be deducted right then for, which would get that person rolling on items they could really make use out of overall. Basically those people would know immediately who would get the item once it actually did (if ever) drop. If that person isnt present in the raid where it does drop, then rolling continues as usual.

The idea would be to easy the crazed minds of people who hoard their dkp for the single item. I dont believe that capping the dkp will help because people would still hoard dkp until they reached the top and probably then wouldnt spend dkp if only to have a roll off with the other people who would be hoarding dkp till they maxed out for the same item.

Oz accumulated alot of dkp simply because he didnt need much, and when Pont took his place to heal I nabbed any item that gave me an upgrade no sweat! My only concern was that there are certain items that were huge upgrades for pont that he missed out on, because other people wanted them for a minor upgrades. So, if we're speaking about upgrades for people, my only defense of people who hold out dkp for long periods of time are because they'll lose it to someone else who might not really need it as much, but will take it just because they can.
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Re: DKP Hurting Our Raiding

Post  Aurisa on Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:26 pm

Personally I do not think there is anything wrong with our dkp system. It is fair to for everyone that comes to raids and puts in the time and effort. I do agree some people will horde their dkp for certain items, but if they want to do that it's their choice. If people are willing to let good items be sharded that really isn't anyone's fault but their own. I know this will sound harsh but I see no reason to change an essentailly good system to compensate for people who use it stupidly. If people want to spite themselves let them:)

~Aurisa
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Re: DKP Hurting Our Raiding

Post  Telian on Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:51 am

personally i would say my actions in raid could be a result to this, seeing as i am 2nd on the list for dkp, and yes i am one of those who is saving for an item, but dont get me wronge, i have rolled on things in the past and do so from time to time, but when it comes down to it i pass on other stuff that i either, A. think that someone would get better use out of or B. items that i dont generally see as a ZOMG upgrade and on a side note i dont see it as much as a harm to the raid to pass up something that may only be a 3-6 spellpower differance. and on a side note, i wouldnt really call it hurting the raid considering that this past 25 man we kind of did something that i havent seen us do yet, 1. clear 4 wings in a night and 2. down maly 25.... i would call those big accomplishments and DKP nor people skipping on gear wasnt a factor in any of them Razz
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Re: DKP Hurting Our Raiding

Post  Boman on Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:55 am

I'm going to throw up a new thread on an idea I've been considering. I agree our system needs some tweaking but overall I feel it is much better than how we were running in BC. Given that we have 25 people in our raids, I also agree with everything that everyone said. We get it all.

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Re: DKP Hurting Our Raiding

Post  Flinthrom on Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:46 pm

Daargo said what I'm thinking but probably better than I could have said it myself.

I'll even be franker right now and say that it's the same people every raid who is carrying us through. I have the stats to prove it. Those who aren't performing need to step up and if you are hoarding your dkp for a special item it isn't helping the raid one bit if there's stuff you can use dropping.

If you already have all the gear you can use then hoarding is not a problem because you can't spend it on anything.

But, now that we have Malygos down I don't think items and DKP should be too much of an issue. I think people pulling their own weight and focusing during raids is.

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Re: DKP Hurting Our Raiding

Post  Telian on Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:51 pm

on the other hand i think the whole idea of dkp is misunderstood, since it seems that those who have less are the ones who are complaining more, but at the same time you do also need to remember that the dkp system is there for a reason, i for one will give you a very rude and inappropriate response if you try and force me to roll on something that i feel is a small upgrade, i dont play this game to be told how to loot out my character i play this game for fun and to see end game content, the fact that we seem to be progressing through it in that aspect posses no problem to me, since 1, those who do horde dkp like myself admitingly are allow those with lower dkp to gear themselfs faster because reasons i stated in my preivous comment, and honestly why are you complaining about shards? honestly if you think that you yourself are carrying the raid or that 10 people or 15 people are carrying the raid then why dont you take those 10-15 people and try it with just you guys alone in naxx, garuntee you wont last long with that amount
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Re: DKP Hurting Our Raiding

Post  Mirtas on Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:03 pm

i am still up for class leaders and such taking into acc what the members gear is and they should have say in enforcing some gear on people if they know it will help them out in terms of their overall dps and benefit to the raid.


and it is a 25 man raid, there 25 people should be pulling their weight and therefore no headaches. I mean this week naxx was good, one wipe on Raz because of whatever reason otherwise only hiccup was on thaddius but otherwise we one shotted all bosses and ran through the place. Most fights we had time records. Even i who really don't do much on trash have started helping out with trash.
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Re: DKP Hurting Our Raiding

Post  Regihomestar on Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:58 pm

The more items I obtain, the less I have to worry about DKP.

So, if I get t7.5 shoulders and head simultaneously, I don't have to roll on them ever again, and I can stockpile DKP after I have all the gear I need.

The DKP system is really good. If you have all the stuff already, then you can let it be sharded without any worries. Unfortunately, it doesn't account for scenarios where people are already geared from stuff inside the instance.

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Re: DKP Hurting Our Raiding

Post  Nightjade on Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:44 pm

Before we update the DKP system, we should have minimum stardards that have to be met, such as dps and healing stats. Even if we had more people focus on getting better gear, that does not mean the amount of dps will increase. I have been bringing this up for a few weeks now, that dps and healing numbers are low, even for well geared characters. For the past 4 weeks or so, I have been tracking the numbers for healsing and dps, in 10 man and 25 man and there is a big discrepency in stats. In my opinion people seem to hold back on our 25 man raids because there are more peopl to take up their slack. There should not be a difference in more than 5% ( healing or DPS ) with comparably geared characters. Yes, I week maybe because of internet connections but for 4 weeks straight, that should never be the case.

If we enforce a minimum number that is acceptable for a 25 man raid, which we should be doing anyway, we can easily have Naxx on farm.

Yes I agree that people should have a choice on what they use their DKP points, but if they can not meet the dps and healing numbers they should not be given a free ride to gear up. They should not be allowed to run a 25 man raid.

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